“We Have Decided Not to Die”: The Work of Arakawa and Madeline Gins with Momoyo Homma

In this exceptionally long format (eight pages) dedicated to the transcript of a conversation recorded in Tokyo on October 30, 2014 for The Funambulist’s podcast,
Momoyo Homma introduces us to the artistic, philosophical and architectural work of Shusaku Arakawa (1936-2010) and Madeline Gins (1941-2014). She is the director of the Arakawa + Gins Tokyo office located in the Reversible Destiny Lofts Mitaka — In Memory of Helen Keller, where we recorded this interview after a visit of the lofts by sixty enthusiastic high school students.

LÉOPOLD LAMBERT: The first thing we should do is to introduce who Shusaku Arakawa and Madeline Gins were. We see that they’re often described as Arakawa being an artist and Madeline being a poet, but their individual and combined works were so much more complex than that. Could you briefly tell us about their lives?

MOMOYO HOMMA: Well, Arakawa was born in 1936 in Nagoya, Japan, and Madeline in 1941 in New York. Arakawa started his career as an artist since late-1950s in Japan, and he then joined a group named as Neo-Dadaism Organizers. But, he found that action through the group activities are not regarded as serious things. So, he left the group and started exhibiting his own artworks. At that time he was making coffin-shaped-like sculptures, which were quite sensational in the Japanese art scene; something that makes you feel uncertain and confront people with death.

Many art critics started chasing Arakawa’s artworks. And among them there was a very important person whose name is Shuzo Takiguchi: art critic, poet, and a friend of Marcel Duchamp. He knew Arakawa and he was so happy to find him willing to express his passion through his artworks, which seemed very new to him. So, Takiguchi introduced Arakawa to Marcel Duchamp when Arakawa decided to go to New York. Besides Takiguchi, there were some other influential people who supported Arakawa in making the decision to move to New York. And, in December 1961, Arakawa arrived in New York; according to him, with only $14 in his pocket and also a recommendation letter by Takiguchi for Duchamp. He called Duchamp from the JFK airport, and immediately met with him. They got to know each other, and Duchamp was pleased to know a young Japanese artist full of ambition, coming to see him.

In 1962, Arakawa met Madeline Gins at the art school of Brooklyn Museum. She was already known as a poet, but, at the same time, she was also making her own artworks when they met each other. From the first time, it seems they have met their life partner. Since then, they started working/living together, and they got married in 1965. Once, I’ve asked Arakawa how he met Madeline, and why he started working with her. He said: “well I met her at an art school and some friends of mine told me, ‘She’s crazy!’ and ‘Be careful!’ So I became very interested in knowing her! And we started talking to each other, and we found that both of us were thinking like, in some points, thinking in kind of the same way. Especially about the fear of death. So we started talking about how to overcome death and how we can create things to let people know that we can probably change the concept or commonsense of death because it’s regarded as a destiny already decided which we never can change. But who says that? Probably, we have more opportunity to see how we can change destiny. So through our conversation we have decided to make a series of work which is entitled The Mechanism of Meaning.

The Mechanism of Meaning is a very important work of Arakawa and Madeline Gins, and it consists of more than eighty paintings together with some drawings and three-dimensional work. It is published in a very beautiful book, firstly, in Germany, and then in the United States and Japan, and many other countries. But their first show was held in Germany — the project was always “work-in-progress,” according to Arakawa and Madeline. And it was so sensational because people have never seen that kind of paintings. I would describe it as a huge notebook of exercises, diagrams and indications and instructions, about how to exercise yourself and how to make your mind in

different way. It’s hard to describe in words though…, but anyway, people really liked it and it was lucky for Arakawa and Madeline because the famous physicist, Werner Heisenberg happened to see the show and he was eager to meet and know Arakawa and Madeline; that’s how they met each other. Heisenberg was amazed that the couple’s artworks contain important elements for scientists, so he decided to invite them to the Max Planck Institute, a special school for physicists and mathematicians, which is a quite unique episode in the two artists’ lives.

LL: We should now address the goal of their work is to rethink of the way we think of life and death, and death in particular. The way I have been interpreting the philosophical scream “We Have Decided Not to Die,” that appeared as the main manifesto of their exhibition at the Guggenheim SoHo in 1997, including when I was used to see Madeline every day, was by using two references that was resolutely not theirs: Spinoza and Xavier Bichat. I would like to ask you for your own interpretation of this striking sentence because every time we explain that to someone who never heard about their work, we say, “Arakawa and Madeline Gins are the artists/architects who want to build spaces for people not to die.” And people tend to immediately interpret “a space for people to be immortal,” rather than “a space for people not to die,” which, in my understanding, is extremely different: “not dying” is a continuous action, whether “being immortal” would correspond to a sort of definitive status. What would be your own interpretation of this sort of manifesto gathered in this one sentence: “We have decided not to die?”

MH: “We have decided not to die” is indeed the title of a big show of Arakawa and Madeline at Guggenheim SoHo in 1997. The exhibition consisted in the whole contents of The Mechanism of Meaning along with architectural projects’ plans and models. The Mechanism of Meaning was the beginning of their creative life, and if you look at the work carefully, you will notice that everything in it is somehow related to our body. Arakawa once told me he wanted to be a doctor when he was very young. And he really was about to start studying medicine, but he realized doctors are just kind of repairmen: They try to repair the part which you have damaged, so doctors are not the people who would be able to achieve finding answers to make you healthier than before. Later, Arakawa thought that maybe the concept of ‘overcoming death’ is something very new to the world, and he decided to be an artist because artists always give us the new way of thinking and a very new aspect to the world, like to make a person immortal.

So, the title “We Have Decided Not to Die” actively showed their determination as well as their manifesto, as you say. At the same time, I am sure that they were expecting people’s affirmative reactions and appropriate the problem. People would say, “Well what does it mean, ‘we have decided not to die?’ It’s obvious that we all die, so, how can they say that?” As you see, it’s a kind of calling-for-a-reaction title. And Arakawa and Madeline always used to answer, “Use your body.” Then people would say, “Well, but how? We all know our bodies are also aging and will die someday.” And Arakawa said, “Well, maybe you’re thinking of death from a very narrow aspect, because we never know what exactly the death means. Why don’t we start studying further on death?”

We will probably disappear from this world. But it doesn’t mean that we “die;” it doesn’t mean the end of everything because something of us will remain in this world. For example, we talk about our great grandmother and being reminded of her cooking. Probably it’s part of her remaining in this world. So, in that moment, she’s here with us. Of course she’s not in the same shape as she used to be, but somehow we can feel her when we talk about her. Now, can we say that she’s dead? Probably she’s alive at that moment, and if we connect those moments, maybe without seeing her shape, figure, we can be with her together. But it’s hard to experience that sort of thing in everyday life, because we are so busy, and belong to each person’s social life in this world today.

To make people active to participate in the discussion, Arakawa decided to study architecture autodidactically, because he thought that the every field of “art” has its limits/frame, and even he and Madeline worked so hard in making artworks, they found they were always introduced/exhibited through figurative frames too: art galleries, museums, or critics’ words were unable to reach people in the street. That’s how Arakawa and Madeline decided that architecture was the only way to get the people involved, designing space for them, inventing a container for their bodies. They started concentrating on architecture from the late 1980s early 1990s, and tried to find how they could create space and equipment for people who refuse to die.

LL: There are two quotes that I find particularly interesting and useful for this vision of death. One is coming from Duchamp himself, or rather, the epitaph on his grave: “It’s only others who die.” The second one is from my favorite book by Madeline, What the President Will Say and Do, published in 1984 and which has a chapter that is, for me, one the most beautifully and humorously written feminist manifestos. It is entitled “All Men are Sisters,” and, considering the Socratic axiom that “all men are mortal,”  Madeline writes, “All men are mortal, but maybe women are not.”

MH&LL: laughs

LL: We are now at this point of the biography where Madeline and Arakawa are interested in creating spaces for the body — what we call architecture — where this could be thought as only one thing: the body and the architecture all together. They call this combination “Architectural Body” and they wrote an entire book dedicated to this concept. In this regard, the fact that we are currently recording this conversation in the Reversible Destiny Lofts is not innocent. This collective housing building designed by Arakawa and Madeline is dedicated to Helen Keller. What’s extremely interesting to me in this homage, lies in the fact that when architects design buildings, they always think of a very limited amount of bodies they’re building it for. Actually, sometimes they only think of one, and it’s the most normative body. It’s usually a man, not a woman. Everything that takes its measure in architecture would be dedicated to this one body, this idea of a normal body. And so, we really limit ourselves by doing so because somehow it develops a violence on every body that does not fit with this image of the normal body for which architecture has been designed.

And so, this is not to say that Arakawa and Madeline Gins don’t have a body in mind when they develop their architecture. But maybe they’re a little bit more humble in what a body is and what a body can do, to again quote Spinoza. But they might have one particular body they’re thinking of when they’re designing their architecture which is the body of Helen Keller, which is called by society as being “blind” and “deaf.” Obviously one is never “blind” and “deaf” in the absolute. There are only blind people because there are non-blind people, and the world is built for the latter. So what if there was an architecture built for these bodies that are marginalized by society like Helen Keller? Could you tell us more about this particular aspect of their work?

MH: Madeline told me once when she knew Helen Keller first through Arakawa, she thought, “Well, this story is maybe too sentimental.” But she found Helen Keller’s signature one day and she was surprised because it looks quite similar to some lines on Arakawa’s paintings. So she changed her mind and became interested in Helen Keller’s life. In Japan, it is very popular to learn about Helen Keller’s story when we are children. Almost everybody in Japan knows Helen Keller. And there is a famous theater play “The Miracle Worker,” through which we learn her life story. Although “The Miracle Worker” is a story about Helen Keller’s famous teacher, Ms. Sullivan, we regard that Helen Keller also is a miracle-person because she lost her hearing and sight before she became two years old, but she recreated her body by herself and with a great support of Ms. Sullivan, her family and friends, so that the circumstances surrounding her encouraged her to overcome her difficulties. She recreated her body for it to be able to “see” and “hear” the things using other senses, and she finally learned words to speak and write. That’s what really amazed Arakawa in the figure of Helen Keller.

Arakawa thought that if Helen Keller was able to conquer her body and environment in such a way, it meant that we could do that too. It also meant that our body has an incredible ability inside, but we haven’t realized its potential. Helen Keller could never see something with her eyes but using her body, using other senses, she could see things. And that means that our bodies have a huge possibility to create more number of senses, like hundreds or thousands. Arakawa and Madeline tried to find a way to pull out the extension of your body, try to pull more senses out, a number of senses from your body using architecture. That’s why they always regard Helen Keller as a model when they thought of their architectural projects.

LL: Following the previous mention of the place where we are recording this conversation, the Reversible Destiny Lofts, I would like to orient the second part of our discussion towards this very particular space. We are presently in one of the lofts in which visits are organized to introduce people to this architecture. Can you please describe to us the various tactics (the procedures) that Arakawa and Madeline have been using to design this space in relation to this manifesto, “We Have Decided Not to Die” that we have been talking about?

MH: Ok. First of all, one may be surprised with this bumpy floor, and as you know, the Bioscleave House in East Hampton, New York, also has bumps on the floor and the floor itself is slanted. If you see carefully, you will notice that the ceiling is also slanted. Arakawa always said that these bumps will stimulate your arches of your feet. If you look at your feet, you will find almost everybody has arches, right? There’s no straight line on our feet or our bodies. So, it means that compared to the flat floor, this bumpy floor is more adapted to our body. There are also many spaces like corners in this apartment. They are elements, like safe spaces to protect yourselves, as if the animals always find a corner-like space to rest and sleep. When we have residents who come with a cat or a dog, they always tell us that their pet really loves this floor, and looks cozy sleeping in their favorite corner-like space.

In addition to that, we’ve received many elderly people. First of all, we were a little bit worried in receiving them, because some people appeared here with a cane. We were about to say, “please be careful!” But we tried to put up in saying that, because Arakawa used to say, “this loft is perfect for elderly people. So you’d better see them to learn how they manage the floor.” And that’s true. They came in, of course were surprised at the beginning and said, “Wow, what a floor, this is so bumpy!” But, gradually they started walking, and after having walked for a while, they all became great fans of this bumpy floor. It was a really great experience, I took my mother here. She’s disabled, she cannot walk without her cane. But, when she was here, she said, “Well I don’t need my cane here, because this floor is so secure for me. I can feel like my feet, each foot, is grabbing each bump. I love this floor!” It made me very happy indeed. Obviously for children, as it seems like a playground, they immediately start running on this bumpy floor. You can see it in the photos. It’s a very unique space where you can find your own way to use, or customize it as you like for all generations. But I strongly recommend in coming to experience it, since it is very hard in explaining by words, or seeing only photos.

Anyway, the floor is the first thing I had to mention. Secondly, I can talk about the slanting floor and ceiling. This is Arakawa and Madeline’s attempt to break your image of size and scale. For example, one day you become taller than you are. But if you move to the other side, you become shorter. This happens a lot. I mean, the angles of the floor and ceiling make the scale of the objects always changeable. But the most important thing is who is making the scale changeable? It is your/our body, who makes the move. We can say that the way of measuring the object’s size or scale is not only one, if we move around in this loft, which also means that our body could be a scale of your world. Arakawa and Madeline have put their thoughts and indications in these elements trying to say that you don’t have to always trust the so-called “common sense” once you use your body actively.

The hooks in the ceiling are also very unique suggestion to use your living space more enjoyable and practical. I personally think it is a great idea for tiny housing complex in Japan. There is no closet-closet space in this loft. You will find some drawers but you don’t have big closet as other apartments today. Instead, Arakawa and Madeline’s proposal is to try to put your things to the ceiling so that you will have more space on the floor. And looking at the ceiling, you see many hooks, silver rings. You can just hang your things from the ceiling. Each hook is quite strong; it’s able to hang something like 100 or 150 kilos. Some residents have hung furniture to the ceiling and enjoying their “reversible” space.

LL: What about the sphere room?

MH: This sphere room is the one and only in the world, a completely sphere room in residential apartments. Well, you can enjoy the echo of your voice inside, and it’s also a space to feel your weight and the gravity. Also, Arakawa and Madeline used to work so hard in studying ideal space for autistic persons. And they found that something like sphere room is perfect for them to relax. There is a scary machine developed for the purpose of calming down when autistic persons become overwhelmingly stimulated. When you see the machine, it is quite upsetting to think that a person should be clasped between two surfaces this way. Arakawa and Madeline found that the sphere room can be used instead of the machine, having same affections to the body. Who is willing to be ‘sandwiched’ in a machine if there is a vitamin-yellow-colored sphere room? One day, we gave the visit to a group of persons who have difficulties, some of them were blind, others, deaf, and some others were autistic. One of them was a ten-year-old child. When he was walking on this bumpy floor, he seemed very excited, to the point that he might have become a little too excited, or at least, confused. We encouraged him to enter the sphere room, which he did and, all of a sudden, he became very quiet and started singing in a very beautiful way. We were very happy to see the evidence that Arakawa and Madeline were right.

LL: You were talking about corners earlier, how they are the place where animals —humans being animals as well — go to find their territory. Perhaps the effect of the sphere room is what it is because a sphere is, by definition, the inflection of a surface at every single of its points; a room made uniquely of corners if we may.

Changing topic a bit: the Reversible Destiny Lofts are also the site of the Tokyo part of the foundation continuing Arakawa and Madeline’s work — the other being in New York. Could you please tell us a bit more about what the Foundation is doing, specifically in this housing building. I think you are hosting some tours as you mentioned and some workshops.

MH: The Arakawa + Gins Tokyo office was established in 2002, in purpose of exploring more projects active in Japan. Until then, as they are based in NY, they were not interested in separating their bases since their foundation has been there for decades. In 2002, there was a possible project to be happened in Nagoya city, engaging Arakawa + Gins architectural plan. This project was the reason why they decided to open the Tokyo office.

After we got the project in Nagoya in making blue prints for a housing complex of 7 houses, Arakawa started saying that we must start making “our” own housing complex at a bigger scale than the Nagoya project. The project was hosted and organized by Nagoya city, so we knew that there would be many issues that would compromise the design, materials, and the budget. So Arakawa and Madeline wanted to make their own, a “100 percent Arakawa and Gins designed” housing complex, demonstrating what is like the real “Reversible Destiny” project, and… that was the beginning of this Reversible Destiny Lofts Mitaka — In Memory of Helen Keller, where we are now.

The Reversible Destiny Lofts consist of nine apartments. Five of them have permanent residents, two others are used for workshops and short stays for visitors. The final two are for our office, the office of Arakawa and Gins in Tokyo. As the lofts are mainly used as residence, it’s hard to receive visitors all the time. I mean, we have to ask people to make a reservation to visit us, because sometimes we don’t have any apartment available to show. So we started organizing architectural tours, which takes around 90 minutes, when we have available space. We’ve been holding the tours like twice or three, four times a month. And we’ve already received more than 10,000 people from various places of the world as of today.

It’s amazing to know so many people are interested in knowing the architecture of Arakawa and Madeline Gins. And probably you may feel like 90 minutes is very long for an architectural tour of such a small apartment. But, actually, we need at least one hour or one hour and half to let visitors experience the space with their bodies, as well as to explain important elements of Arakawa and Gins’ work. On the other hand, I never want to explain all of them in words, so we try to encourage people to move around and sometimes even lie down on the famous bumpy floor. We sometimes organize workshops to put people in blindfold walking, so that people can experience why — well, a part of “why” — the lofts are dedicated to Helen Keller.

The capacity of each tour is 20-25 people because of the space. But sometimes we are asked by a big group in guiding. Like today, we were asked to give a visit to 60 high school students from Taiwan. Recently, the visit to the lofts has become more popular than before, and we are receiving a variety of groups, visitors from worldwide.

Actually, most of the built works by Arakawa and Gins are in Japan: The Site of Reversible Destiny Yoro Park, Nagi’s Ryoanji at Nagi Museum of Contemporary Art, and the Reversible Destiny Lofts Mitaka, so I am confident that if one comes to Japan, they will be able to know more in depth Arakawa and Gins’ creative life, experiencing these built works.

We also recently received a great news: Kansai University in Osaka has established a three-year study program on Arakawa and Gins from this year, and I am expecting that through this kind of action, we can move forward, since Arakawa and Madeline were so determined to continue studying the potentialities of the “Reversible Destiny,” and the action of not dying through an architecture mobilized against death.

Transcription by Amrit Trewn / Find the audio version of this conversation online in “‘We Have Decided Not to Die’ The Work of Arakawa and Madeline Gins.”